[長文] 有冇人同我一樣,好憎家族成員迷信基督教?

可憐小正太

394 回覆
459 Like 28 Dislike
宸匡 2021-11-22 23:04:46
疾跑的霍金 2021-11-22 23:10:37
我嘗試釐清一下對你講法嘅理解,你睇下準唔準確。

你認為神全知,知道你選擇嘅結果。但同時人有選擇,即使無可能同神所知嘅結果唔同,人依然有行使自由意志。

請問咁樣講足唔足夠概括你嘅講法?同你確認後我再作回應。

至於下半,百份百同意你所講嘅野。同神存在與否無關,純粹係描述緊宗教作為社會現象對現今社會有咩影響。
疾跑的霍金 2021-11-22 23:14:54
I think anyone with an open mind and critical thinking is eligible to discuss. In this case, s/he is not.

In the process of discussing with another user in this thread, I found a chapter that beautifully summarise the argument, see below:

1. God’s beliefs are infallible.
2. For any event x, if God believes in advance that x will occur, then no one is
in a position to prevent (or avoid) x.
3. For any event x, if no one is in a position to prevent (or avoid) x, then no one
is free with respect to x.
4. For every event x that ever occurs, God believes in advance that it will
occur.
5. So, no one is free with respect to any event.
6. So, human free will is a complete illusion.

Source: https://spu.edu/depts/philosophy/documents/Foreknow.pdf
幣笑 2021-11-22 23:49:35
complex 2021-11-23 00:09:59
其實係佢特登唔(直接)答你 唔係佢解答唔到
可能因為佢已經答咗你只係你未get到 而佢知你最終會get到 所以向你沉默
或者因為你抱住試探佢既心態去問
韓國瑜快不起來 2021-11-23 01:13:39
其實宗教好奇怪
完全信到十足既人係有少少奇怪,但完全無神論者又係好恐怖。
韓國瑜快不起來 2021-11-23 01:14:21
比我揀我會同理性既教徒相處多過無神論者
燃狗小菜 2021-11-23 02:09:37
但同時人有選擇,即使無可能同神所知嘅結果唔同,人依然有行使自由意志。


我認為你對全知同自由意志理解之間的關係有誤

你嘅睇法係神嘅全知間接顯示人嘅自由意志係有「限制」

我嘅睇法係兩者沒有任何關係,以下係解釋:

個仔有無得選擇執行唔開電視呢個行為?如果可以,即老母非全知


以神全知作為前提,
因此就算係人作出嘅其他選擇嘅後果(例如阿當夏娃無食禁果嘅未來),
神也能看到

但是神看到,不代表人會選擇咁做

祂同時亦知道你將會作出邊個選擇(會犯罪食禁果),
而人受限於時間,
因此所有選擇都無得番轉頭,
所以結果只有你做咗嘅果一個選擇
但咁同神全知全能無關係
complex 2021-11-23 07:50:38
佢既argument暗指 神既全知"導致"我地作出選擇
所以重點係搵出究竟神既全知係咪真係會導致人作出特定選擇 令到本應隨機及不可預測既宇宙得返一個版本(in contrary to multivers)
疾跑的霍金 2021-11-23 09:33:56
估唔到會見到timelessness argument同middle knowledge argument

你提及人受限於時間,我推斷你同時認為神不受限於時間啦,有錯請指正。Timelessness argument認為神存在於時間之外,無所謂之前之後。對人黎講無法改變嘅過去、以及無法預知嘅將來,對神黎講佢都係”simply sees you doing them, because despite you have lost yesterday, He has not. Though the future is not yet there for you, it is for Him.” 亦由於呢個特性,神並不是「預先」知道人會點做,所以自由意志可行。

但其實你自己都已經講出咗個問題喺邊。

你提到:

但是神看到,不代表人會選擇咁做

祂同時亦知道你將會作出邊個選擇(會犯罪食禁果)

其實呢兩句放埋一齊睇就會見到,人不能夠選擇做同神認知唔同嘅選擇。人嘅選擇無辦法改變神所知嘅事實,所以難以稱為自由意思。其中一個對於timelessness argument嘅回應提到對人黎講,未來並未存在(we cannot be aware of the future, like how we cannot be aware of a unicorn, they don’t exist)。但對神黎講未來係存在且已定,咁人又如何可能改變呢?

另一方面,你意為神見到所有可能嘅結果,「神知道所有人喺所有情況下會自由地選擇做什麼」,即middle knowledge argument。呢個講法最大嘅問題喺佢衍生嘅推論喺人並無自由意志,如下:

1. If God knew the truth-values (i.e., truth or falsity) of all subjunctive conditionals of freedom prior to the creation of the world, then those truth- values are beyond our present control.
2. The truth of a subjunctive conditional of freedom, together with the truth of its antecedent—which corresponds to factors that are beyond the control of the agent at the time of the act—necessarily implies the truth of its consequent.
3. The consequent of a subjunctive conditional of freedom specifies a single course of action the agent would take; it does not specify a range of options the agent might take (such as “Either do act A or refrain from act A”).
4. So, if God has middle knowledge, then a human agent does not have more than one course of action open to him (or her) in any given set of circumstances, and hence human agents do not have free will in the incompatibilist sense.

最後你提到人做完選擇無得番轉頭,我唔係太明白同討論有咩關係。自由意志講嘅係你有無得揀,唔係有無得揀多次。如有誤請不惜賜教。
疾跑的霍金 2021-11-23 09:37:14
從來無咁講過,亦從來無咁嘅意思。上述所有討論都唔需要帶入多重宇宙論,建議師兄睇仔細少少
青柳立夏 2021-11-23 09:43:53
人心太脆弱,唔係個個人都可以頂到失敗嘅壓力,宗教就係呢個比人一個喘息空間嘅東東,對某啲人嚟講,冇咗就可能會頂唔順去死。
永世名人 2021-11-23 09:51:11
去過一次教會 因為太唔合作比人請走咗
complex 2021-11-23 10:19:41
consider the case of Eden
Given that God is omniscient
He offered Adam to choose between obedience and disobedience
so we can say that Adam was free to make a decision and thus he had a free will. isn't it?
疾跑的霍金 2021-11-23 12:24:37
God knew well what Adam and Eve were going to do. As we can only comprehend a one-direction linear experience of time, we might feel like Adam and Eve were facing a choice but there was no way they can choose the option that avoid what God knew in advance. Hence they do not have free will.
民兵 2021-11-23 12:30:18
第一段生意方面已經知你唔太清楚

基督教並不是一個祈求風調雨順的東西

亦不是求神祝福及干涉現實的宗教

我不會告訴你什麼神的安排,考驗。

你家人及你所遇到的人都是宗教歷史遺毒的延伸,他們受歷代世俗宗教化影響,將耶穌教導變成接近人民能理解的事情。

你留意你講的事情很多都是你與人之間的關係
看著太陽下山的山 2021-11-23 12:46:08
我後來發現原來自己唔明你講乜,
所以唔同你討論住。
就係咁簡單。
咁都俾你搞到咁複雜。
係要好似啲女人咁拉返以前啲嘢講:
“你以前又話會一世鐘意我,
而家又話唔係。
你根本講大話。”

“其實人地以前覺得鐘意你,同後來發現原來唔係 ”

同:“其實以前以為你係想講時間,後來發現原來你講緊單線xx時間。原來唔係時間。咁我唔講住,因為都唔明。”

係一樣。
無咩悔唔悔氣。
係晒氣,
因為表面包裝似理性,
實際係你覺得我你覺得我。
你仲要連覺得都cut埋,
我講咩都晒氣

猛單方面做假設,評論別人悔氣,話人無知扮知,呢啲唔會係有心討論嘅人會覺得值得討論嘅對象。亦會覺得唔舒服。

宗教徒愛情一樣講timing。
你唔理解果個宗教,就唔好拎果個宗教教條黎威脅對方:你在地使命係乜乜乜。

如果我知道對方係值得我去為福音講多少少會講,但你唔值得。廢事你又要拎來講。都值得意思係指:同佢講嘢唔會唔舒服。反問你,咁唔舒服,講黎做咩?
complex 2021-11-23 12:49:45
Do you define freedom as the ability to creat an outcome which is beyond God's knowledge?
看著太陽下山的山 2021-11-23 12:59:14
什麼自由意志同全能全知。
有人覺得兩者不能共存:
“你若全知,我怎能算有自由意志。”

而家全世界人都知自己有自由意志。
即有人想說:
“所以沒有人能全能全知。”

你有你自由意志,
不過我有我咩都知。
好似無咩衝突
complex 2021-11-23 13:05:57
神對佢既子民講過 蛇要傷我地既腳 我地要傷蛇既頭
說話唔係講得越多就越有力
你見我地主耶穌同法利賽人挑機都冇長篇大論 但每句說話都命中對方死穴
所以你要向主求依種智慧 多讀聖經 多聽真道 多思考 使你能傷蛇既頭
看著太陽下山的山 2021-11-23 13:09:44
其實道理一直都在,但人一直在尋,人人話自己係道理,睇邊個宗教最講道理。
看著太陽下山的山 2021-11-23 13:12:25
有啲人一句殺埋黎你錯就係錯,果啲唔使講多,自己認為,晒氣
complex 2021-11-23 13:16:08
佢依個argument係從撒旦嗰度嚟
好persuasive and sophisticate
yet it's merely a deception
只能deceive不屬神既人
對我地係冇效
所以弟兄姊妹不要因這悖逆世代而恢心氣娞
卻要在基督裡得安息
看著太陽下山的山 2021-11-23 13:20:27
聖經都有話沉默是金呢樣嘢。
佢係咪撒旦果邊我唔清楚,
但明顯唔一樣價值觀。
complex 2021-11-23 13:26:28
只係話佢個argument係從撒旦而嚟 冇話佢係撒旦嗰邊
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